Scott Payne (Code Name Pale Horse, White Hot Hate) is a retired FBI Special Agent and author. Scott joins the Armchair Expert to discuss his first taste of undercover work in high school in South Carolina, how he caught the bug training as a fresh-face narcotics officer, and his long shot cold application to the FBI. Scott and Dax talk about his first undercover assignment in the Outlaws biker gang, the ins and outs of performing believable criminal activity, and navigating guilt around putting targets away whose trust he’d earned. Scott explains that the ultimate goal of undercover is accountability by building relationships you’re going to betray, infiltrating an insidious and violent accelerationist white supremacist cell, and a terribly fraught encounter with a goat.

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